On today's episode of Stuck in the Fantom Zone, we talk about our origins of getting into comic books and describe what it was like reading comics in 2010s. Also, we each talk about a comic book from that period that deserves some recognition. If you enjoy listening to our episodes, please consider subscribing wherever your listen to your podcasts. Thanks!
On today's episode of Stuck in the Fantom Zone, we talk about our origins of getting into comic books and describe what it was like reading comics in 2010s. Also, we each talk about a comic book from that period that deserves some recognition. If you enjoy listening to our episodes, please consider subscribing wherever your listen to your podcasts. Thanks!
Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Stuck in the Phantom Zone. I'm your host, steven, and I got the homies with me, neil RC and today we're going to take a trip down memory lane. We're going to talk comic books. I think this is the first episode we've actually started talking about comic books Right, I think that's is that. Is that like other than like I had my origin episode but like I did a solo pod, but I think all three of us we haven't really talked comics together and made it specifically an episode, I think so I think you're right, maybe not a great detail like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think 25 episodes in this comic book podcast is now talking about comic books. We're fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's my 25th episode anniversary.
Speaker 3:We escaped the Phantom Zone.
Speaker 1:We escaped the Phantom Zone and we're here to talk about comic books. Man, we're going to talk about the era, the period that we really started reading comic books, and that's the 2010s. There's a lot of special memories, a lot of a lot of comics that are near and dear to us, that we we've read, we've reviewed on other social media platforms, and today we're going to kind of do our best to kind of encapsulate all that. So, so yeah, let's, let's dive in. Let's start with. Let's start with how we, how was our first experience into the comic shop? I know, neil, that you were. You were reading comics beforehand. Tell us about your experience, your first experience going to a comic store and kind of like what books you kind of gravitated towards when you first started.
Speaker 2:To be honest, it was like cheapo dollar bins At the time. We didn't have, I guess, as an abundance on social media and all these like different comic news websites you know, and even like mainstream pop culture ones like IGN and stuff. There wasn't really any way to kind of follow it as well. So I just kind of found like if I got lucky and I found like five issues of a series and back issues like oh sweet, that are like the dealer trades, which is really cool. So that's how I kind of like I did my toes but I wasn't like collecting at the time and reading like month to month like we have been. That's kind of sort of my origin, if you want to get like really back into it.
Speaker 2:How I got into comics was obviously anime shows. Grown up as kids we watched all that stuff. But the Sunday paper whenever we got it they always had like in seven years or eighties comic like a reprint and that's how I really got into the joy of reading and like the imagination it brought to me. And I still have a few of them. I tried to look at them earlier but I think they're like deep in like the arc of the covenant, like back in the storage units of my like my short boxes.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I remember like that's how I first started and obviously we started, you know, talking about a more superhero movies around the rise and we, you know, all together, start going to the comic store more and more and one by one, we're just doing pull lists like that. So that's kind of like the origin story and I guess what I was reading at the time was, honestly, since I couldn't afford too much high school, obviously I would try to get the team books, you know, your Avengers or Justice Leagues. I think the only one I picked up, like to complete when it was coming out, was Blackest Night. That was like pretty much the only one really, because I was like whoa, these are like other green lanterns, what are these like other different colors? Now, that's the only one I really picked up for a Marvel guy like DC really kind of like propelled me. My favorite overall, like yeah, I'm a Marvel guy, but my favorite like overall comic store is Blackest Night by Jeff Johns over at DC.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of the origin and it's been up and down ever since. It's been a lot of ups in the mid 2000s or the 2010s, then kind of a lot of downs when it kind of got burnt out by like prices getting jacked up, you know and story arcs kind of being just you know meh. But that's kind of sort of my origin and I've really enjoyed the team books, just because it's my excuse of saying like, oh, I read, yeah, I read a Daredevil book. He's in this Defenders book. So that's kind of how my excuse was to like kind of get a feel of all these different characters. It was a team book so really delve into a lot of that. Avengers, secret Avengers, new Avengers, justice League, batman Inc was one I did in trade a lot. Yeah, just that's pretty much it team books for me and like now I'm not reading as much but I'm trying to like slowly get back into it because I'm not I don't keep up as quick as you know we used to. So that's sort of my mini origin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, like team books is for anyone who's, you know, starting wanting to read comics. I mean, searching for those team books is probably the best advice you can get, just because you get more bang for your buck, especially now these days where comics are definitely more expensive than it was when we first started reading. So so, yeah, like doing the team books and then usually, maybe, if you're interested in a character you know you could follow that character somewhere else, or if they have their own single series, they can do that. So so, yeah, that was. You know, that's always good advice for anybody trying to jump into comics and really don't know where to start. They kind of have, you know, either they're starting with the movies and they're like, hey, I want to follow the Avengers or Captain America or something like that. There's always some gateway that you can head to to get to that area. So, rc man, let me know, let me know your first experience going to a comic shop and what books that you were picking up at the time.
Speaker 3:So so kind of like my secret origins into the comic book world started when I was, I think, seven or eight years old, back when the Scholastic Book Fair was a thing in elementary school.
Speaker 3:My brother picked up Calvin and Hobbes at the fair and then he would read me the comic book. So he would like point to the panel and just like read strips of Calvin and Hobbes. To me that would just kind of be our little downtime. And then I got it more into it when I of course got the Sunday paper and you too. Yeah, sundays was like full color spreads of comic strips and I would read Garfield and Calvin Hobbes and Dilbert and all of those. And yeah, back when, back when the newspaper thing, I would like grab the entertainment section before my dad could get to it. And back then you would, you would see the times for like TV shows, like what was coming up on on the programs, and then you would have comic books and then you'd have movie reviews and yeah, that was just like my continuation into enjoying comic books. But the first, first kind of dive into getting comic books was back at Orange Park Mall. There was a store called Suncoast. Oh, yeah, that's right, they had comic books on display and my brother was in 12 and I would just like get random like issues here and there. I think I have an early issues of Spider-Man. This was like the late 90s. So there was a lot of like John Ramita Jr art out there and Mark Bagley art and many like household staple names of like comic book industry characters and I didn't care about that. I just wanted to see like Spider-Man and Daredevil. But yeah, my brother would get his comics I would state Brando's. And then there was a 13 year period where I just didn't collect anything. It was like I put comic books out of my mind but I was still invested in like the pop culture realm of it. I was watching Justice League, spider-man, the animated series, batman, of course, when I would get home from school on Kids WB channel 17 from 330 to 5. And that was the highlight of my childhoods was Kids WB slash Tsunami, when you get all those pop culture shows that became popular here. But yeah, like I said, it was 13 year period where I didn't collect comic books and you think about it and have it in my field of vision.
Speaker 3:And then my brother started going through another comic book shop around like 2012. So, like you know, the MCU is starting to take off there in this time. This is the height of, or the beginning of, superhero culture being like prevalent in like our everyday language. But I went with my brother to a comic book shop one day because he was picking up a poll and I got this random Deadpool issue. So I was like, you know, let me just like grab one. And then one week became another week and I would grab another one. And then next thing, you know, I'm at our local comic shop at the time not superhero high, but Universal Superheroes and I'm talking to the guy at the counter and I'm like, hey, I want to start a poll and he's like all right, what books do you want to add? I'm just like Spider-Man, of course, and at this time Brian Michael Bendis was just about to release Guardians of the Galaxy, and so those are my first two books in my poll.
Speaker 3:And then after that, for like how many years, it was like every Wednesday was just like the best day of the week because it was new comic book day. It was days when I get to meet up with you guys at the comic book shop and we just like geek out on what we've been reading and then we'd go grab lunch afterwards and then after that we'd just be spending the rest of my Wednesday just reading comic books and those are fun times. But like, yeah, I dove deep into that comic book world Like, no regrets, I put down a lot of money but it was fun because it was just like you would connect with a bunch of people who before if you were to say to someone like, oh yeah, I read comic books, you'd probably get to like beat up at like the playground. You're like, oh, you read comic books, you're nerd, Beat up, beat up. But now I was like with a group of people that I could connect with and just like geek out on characters that weren't even real but like they felt real to us, and that was just like those conversations and the excitement I would get to share with people was like inspiring and like helped me break out of my introverted shell a bit. But yeah, during that time I loved having conversations, everyone.
Speaker 3:I loved meeting up with you, steven, and we just go through dollar bins, just like the world was open to us, like when you're new into comics, like everything is interesting. So we were just scrolling through back issues, 50 cent bins, dollar bins, and we're like I don't know who or why. I mean we knew like certain big names to look out for, but other than that we're just like, oh, this looks cool, this looks cool, grab that, grab this. And yeah, that was like my big dive into comic books. I've since then slowed down a little bit, but I'm still into comic books. Just, I have a backlog that's like two years long that I need to catch up on.
Speaker 1:So yeah, man, comics, man, they're like a drug. It's one of those things where you figure out something, Figure out something you like, and I don't know if you're that type of collector, but you just want to just keep scratching the edge, keep going, keep diving and see what you come up with. Whether it be you know, you have the history of these characters, are not just the movies I mean, they all started in the comic books and to kind of like dig through everything, all these creators, all these people who have touched these characters for 50, 60 years. It's one of those things where it's just like you're never going to read everything. Right, it's that never ending quest to find either really good comics or just find stuff that you've never read before. That you're just like. You feel like you're the first person to plant the flag on. I was like dude, this thing is awesome, I can't wait to tell everybody about it and be that flag bearer for that comic. And then, once you see the wave happen and then this book gets huge, you feel a sense of like man, I was at the ground floor and that's what comic books is. Once you're on any floor not just the ground floor, any floor the only way to go is up and just kind of again, it's almost like a treasure hunt. You never know when you go into a comic store what you're going to find. You're going to find the new releases, but when you go into the back issues, that's a whole nother thing to kind of look forward to as well. So yeah, in regards to my origin, I mean I have a full episode that I did by myself, a solo episode describing my first experiences with comics. So I'm not going to kind of rehash it. You guys can go ahead, and whoever hasn't listened to that you can check that out.
Speaker 1:But for me, giving my abbreviated comic origin again, it was like we were just kind of picking up bits and pieces, right, like Cartoon Network had their Justice League show. They had Superman animated, batman animated that was just stuck in my head. He had the Saturday morning cartoons, like it was. Just it was in my vision, right, it was in my field of vision. But once the MCU got rolling, I think my main reason is like I wanted more. I watched these movies and when they're done, they're done and you don't really get to see the next evolution of that story for another two or three years. So I wanted to kind of fill that gap and just like, all right, I want to learn Iron man. All right, what story of Iron man and Neil kind of got me into it. I met him up at a comic book shop and I was just like it was just one of those feelings where it's just like it's something new and super overwhelming, but you're just excited, like you don't know where to walk. There's comics here, comics there. There's just. It's just kind of like it's your chance to kind of find what you want.
Speaker 1:And obviously with the MCU I gravitated towards the Marvel stuff. Like I remember picking up. I picked up two books. I think I remember the first two books was Captain Marvel number one. That was Kelly Sudakonik's debut issue on that character. And then I picked up a watchman before Watchman the comedian, because I think Watchman was still in that type of I think I don't know if the movie came out around that time or I don't know. It just kind of gravitated towards it.
Speaker 1:And plus, it was a new number one. Like you know anything? Number one again, you're starting at the ground floor. You're like, ok, everyone else is picking up this issue, let me check it out and see. And as I got through it, you know I was picking up Spider-Man.
Speaker 1:I remember picking up Hit Girl Because I know like Kick Ass was kind of in, that was in that. I remember Kick Ass like oh shoot, they got a Hit Girl comic. And then I picked up Avenging Spider-Man, number nine, which right now is actually a pretty sought after issue because it has like that first appearance of Captain Marvel, as like Carol Danvers as Captain Marvel, I guess. But yeah, that's, but yeah, it was just one of those things.
Speaker 1:You start with Marvel and then you know, the new 52 came around and they had a lot more number one issues that were coming out at the time because they were still they were still churning out the new 52 stuff. So you know, I started out with the flagship titles Justice League, batman and then slowly but surely, I started to move towards DC and you know I still pick up my Marvel titles. You know I picked up Indie titles along the way, but that kind of like pushed me over the edge, right. It was just one of those things where you know you read these stories and you really just you know, you grab, you want to find something, you gravitate towards it, you just want more. So that was kind of, in my case, of what DC kind of was doing for me at that time.
Speaker 1:A lot of like I went back and I went on my comic shop and I actually clicked on Captain Marvel one and I actually saw the date like the month it was September 2012. And I looked at like I clicked on that month and year and I kind of saw like what was coming out and just kind of remembering everything and I was like there was a lot of stuff happening, I think, in the new 52, it was kind of like they were on the issues like 11 and 12, or like probably end of their second story arc, and Marvel was still using something that like Spider-Man was still on this old numbering Like it was like like 680, 690.
Speaker 3:That was close to 700. Yeah, yeah, it was like. Yeah, it was right around that time 700.
Speaker 1:And that hype. When that hype started, and yeah, like I remember like astonishing, like they had so many like different stuff that was either a deacon to the run or just like or just a number one issue like Captain Marvel. So you know, I didn't jump in when all the number ones came out for new 52 or when there was a reboot for Marvel. Now you kind of just jump in and that's the one thing that if you're a new comic person, just go into the store, Like just go into it and just kind of walk around see what catches your eye. It doesn't have to be a number one. I mean, a lot of these comics now are very much like you can pick up an issue and kind of get the gist of it.
Speaker 1:You know we also have different outlets like digital comics. Going to the library, like you can catch up on comics. Like you don't have to, like you know, get hung up on a number one anymore. It's kind of all there for you and there's different outlets that you can catch up and get that full story. But yeah, but yeah, like that's that's my origin in kind of like a nutshell there. But yeah, like it's one of those things we're, you know, talking about like where we're at right now, before we kind of go back and kind of talk specifics on what comics we really enjoyed in the 2010s, right now there's, you know, neil you were talking about like the stories were just it just wasn't hitting, like it was very and I don't know. And the big thing is the price. You know, when we were starting comics, you know the tagline hold the line at 299, 399 was like the most we'd pay for a comic. And now you know we're spending, you know, $899 for a number one issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what they end up like about Marvel that they do. It's like the like the press will be on this new Spartan and Con coming out. It's like, oh man, excited. Oh, this is a really interesting story. They're going to be telling a C issue, number one $8. I'm like what it's like I could buy a trade on. Like that's already half, almost half of the amount you could buy for a trade. That's five issues in your pain. Half of that for one issue. That might not be good for an entire volume.
Speaker 2:So yeah it's the main hitters that they're doing it still, I think they steep down a little bit because almost every new number one was like eight bucks, seven bucks, I'm like.
Speaker 3:I know yeah if you want to get that variant cover, it's like 1520 bucks, I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're doing the card stocks now, like DC is doing card stocks where it's a dollar more than the. You know, if you have just the regular old cover a, you can do the cover B for card stock and I'm just like you know those those back in the day were very special, right, Like they would just do you know, a cover, a cover B, cover like covering cover B. Right Now they're doing cover a BCD for these number ones. Burden cover.
Speaker 3:black and white cover, yeah. Holographic color Blank Blank.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just one of those things where right now, you just have to invest more into a comic just to get the ground floor Right. Our ground floor was you pay 399, you get a discount like 350 and you get the first issue and you get a little extra pages. Now you have to. You have to really have to be picky on what you choose and for new comic readers that is, you know that is a downside to it. But again, we talk about four different outlets. I mean, you have digital comics is is, it's always been a mainstay, right. But you know Marvel and TC have their own digital apps. Now you have Hoopla on your library in your library app if you have it. So you don't have to make that commitment and you have to pay that 899 if you're willing to wait. And I know these local comic shops. I mean they don't dictate the price like they have to kind of go with the flow when it comes to, you know, pink comics. That's why you know sometimes they have they have these discounts and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like you know the stories, they never go as long as they used to back in the day. You know, like I think the last, what immortal Hulk was kind of the last one that actually got to like 50 issues. You have these X-Men issues are going along like and that's cool, but you're never going to get that Like the list be list character to get that kind of run. And there's definitely different reasons for that. But back when we were reading it in our heyday of comics within that like it was like 2011, to like 2017, 2018, stuff like that Like you had some big runs. I mean, obviously you know me being the DC guy, I just gravitate towards like Snyder, capulos, batman, even Tom King's Batman like he's even longer than him, you know. And right now you're seeing all these comics kind of being dictated by the movies, right? Case in point I don't know if you guys heard about the Miss Marvel controversy Miss Marvel.
Speaker 2:I got a lot to say, but I'll keep. I won't say it right now.
Speaker 1:We'll get the backstory. If you want to go into that, we can. Just because it kind of like encapsulates where comics is right now, like that's type of a thing where it's like you're seeing, that's like a small particle of it, but it could be something bigger, especially if it returns. Like you know, people are into it and all that stuff and it comes back. The sales are up for that. But Miss Marvel, she, that character dies in Amazing Spider-Man and then she get she. We found out, we find out like two weeks ago or maybe two weeks, as she's coming back and then about a couple days ago we find out that she's come back with a new number one and she's come back as a mutant.
Speaker 1:So, they kind of like you know and I mean they have the actress who plays Miss Marvel co-writing it, which is not a problem at all, because she actually, she actually enjoys comics she puts her money.
Speaker 2:Where about this? Like, yeah, like these actors, like a hard. Oh yeah, I like comics. I've been a comic fan. No, she'll be. Like, I can prove it to you. And here's what I've been reading. Here's what I like. Like, she'll prove it to you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, Like we have no problem with that. It's just the whole how we got there Right. If something like that is happening, it feels like it's not spontaneous with the writer. It feels like the powers that be are kind of like dictating where this character goes, not where, like a creator who's writing it and the artists who you know, who want to kind of create a story for themselves and they have a story to sell. It's kind of like they're telling it for them, which you know, I mean, all comics have that it's not Miss Marvel's, just not. You know, just the latest example.
Speaker 2:That's the latest and, like I guess, the most hot topic one that we had in a while, but it's it's been happening like you said.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like even while we were reading comics, you know, in our prime year to we had, you know, our poll list, or what 15, 16 books.
Speaker 3:Man what's?
Speaker 1:the highest what's the highest books you've ever had in a poll, like on a Wednesday? What's the highest amount you've ever had, like like here's your stack, how many? How many are we talking, I think?
Speaker 2:16 is about right 16 as for a poll, that doesn't. I don't think I've gone over 16 in general, where it's like maybe I like 12 books and I picked like three or four off the shelf yeah, for an entire poll. I think I had 16 one one week. One day I was just like, oh my God. And to be honest, I think I think 12 of them were like really good and like for them or just like I hope the next issue is better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you get above that, 50% bro, like you're, you're good like you're like okay, good, All right. Yeah, Thank goodness. But it's always a crap shoot when you pick it up, man, Like it's just a monthly, a monthly thing, you know if you fall behind if you fall behind one week it should be like oh shoot, I got two weeks to catch up.
Speaker 3:That's like 30 books. Yeah, I tried not to go. My budget every week was like $50. So that was, like you know, 1011 books. On free comic book day I'd go ham and go like $100 and all that, but 50 was my limit. Yeah, yeah, For sure.
Speaker 2:I think for me, when I realized I need to make cuts and this is back then, like right now I'm not, even it's nowhere near as much I'm getting when I make cuts I remember I forgot what event it was. It was. I think it was during secret wars. I didn't realize certain issues that were in my pool that I qualify for these other times. So I was like, oh man, all right, I got to drop this, this, this and this. For sure I'm going to pick it up still, but at least like it's not going to be a bird, yeah, plus, like you know, as we got older, obviously we have, like you know, we have to do adult stuff more responsibilities falling or plates.
Speaker 2:So you know yeah back then, man we were, we were on the grind like, like. Even then, like I think I remember we were just talking about yeah, we got seven books this week, it's not? That much, oh my gosh, we thought seven and one week was a light week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's where we're at. That's where we're at. We were definitely on the 90 percentile when it comes to comics. I mean, whenever we come in and we would come in like pretty much 10am right on the dot, you know we would see these dudes who have like in 25 to 30 books and those were mainstays. Those were people who were like I would see them like every other week, but to see them like it kind of dwarfed our stacks, it made my, it made me feel a little better, to be honest, and just because I was like all right, I'm not spending like 120 today, I'm spending a cool like maybe 40, 40, 50 bucks, you know, but you pay that right now. I mean 150 bucks of comics right now. How much are you getting Like what? Seven, probably seven books.
Speaker 2:The price points varies for, not even by publisher, but by like what you know what, the issue itself. It could be like your Batman book you could be reading could be like 299. Then it's like an over-sets issue, for whatever reason. It's like oh, it's five bucks this week. What's going on? So, yeah, I don't know. I'm curious to see, like the price points now, the bigger books you know, your X-Men's, your Spider-Man's I'm not picking that much up in my pool, but I want to see how much the price will fluctuate. How's it is? Because I, you know, ever since COVID, you know, died down, I think it's pretty much back to normal normal, really, schedule. So everything seems to be back in flow. So now I could kind of get a better comparison of, like, all right, how does, how does industry look now when I go to the store versus my? You know our experiences, you know six, seven years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure, all right, so we'll, we'll, we'll move on to the next next thing where let we'll, let's do a little roundtable discussion here we're going to be talking about, kind of gave the assignment to everybody to pick a comic and some honorable mentions, that what they want to kind of highlight. You know, again, this is the 2010s. There's tons of books like. This is just a small snippet of what those comics like they're definitely more comics than what we're about to talk about that were great, you know, obviously, you know you've probably read them, but you know we'll touch on it a little later as well. But but yeah, so, rc man, I'll start, I'll start with you. I'll let you start off the discussion what was your pick for for your comic for 2010? And give some of your honorable mentions as well.
Speaker 3:So the comic I chose was Superior Spider-Man by Don Dan Slott, with various artists, some of them like Mark Bagley, ryan Stegman, giuseppe Kimicoli, but during this time I had missed the boat on Amazing Spider-Man 700. So I'd missed that key issue when Peter Parker and Doc Ock switch places. So what? Coming into the comic scene at that time was a catch up because I love Spider-Man. Spider-man is my favorite comic book hero Just because the way Stan Lee, his original vision form, was like. He was the every man superhero that you could relate to him and being his shoes. Okay, let me check up on see what my favorite superhero is doing. Oh, he's dead. Oh, his, his, his arch or his his arch foe took over his body and he died in an in another place and all that. I'm like dang. That's. That's harsh, that's the. That's the time I was coming into comics when my, my superhero, died, and they're just like now. We're going to shake it up and we're going to show you what how Doc Ock and Peter Parker's body handles being a hero, because apparently he had a change of heart during the last moments of, like Peter's, peter's time alive, and so I was curious about that, and you know reading the series, even just recently. It's a very darker take on Spider-Man. There's there's, like, certain gray morals. That Doc Ock gets at this time is like trying to just pushing the bounds on, like there's there's certain things that Peter Parker would not cross. You would not like cause supreme harm to his, his foes and whatnot. He wouldn't, like you know, call them idiots and all that. He he joking on it. But this was like a darker take and it was. It was an interesting, interesting run. It was only, I think, 33 issues. It ran from March 2013 to September 2014.
Speaker 3:But you know, I remember the whole conversation and the controversy of killing off your main character and having a villain take the wheel for a while and people were, like you know, up in arms about it. But you know, even Dan slot, the writer, was just like you know, this is a like you know for a fact that Peter's going to come back. We're just going to take a small detour. And people were just like, no, I want Peter Parker right now. I don't want this like change in this, in what I want. I want to be in my comfort zone. And Dan saw I was like you know, we're going to push the bounds a bit, yeah, he coming into the comics at that time, like I knew Well, I didn't know that Peter Parker at the time was like rich and he was like on his way to being super successful.
Speaker 3:I always imagine him like he was still poor as a photographer, still trying to make ends. Meet him. And so during this time, during this time period of the Peter Parker story or or spider man is like he's actually doing good, he's working at Horizon labs. He's like Jay Jonah Jameson's mayor of New York at this time. So like, oh, this is a much different scene than when I left.
Speaker 3:You know, following the series of Superior Spider-Man was just like Okay, let's go down this rabbit hole. And there are issues where you see the ghost of Peter Parker and he's trying to fight his way back into his body, like Peter's subconscious is still in his body, it's just like it's under so many layers of Doc ox psyche. So you know, there's that that kind of push and pull of like who's going to finally take over and you know eventually who's going to win. But I think middle of the way Dan slot was like no, your, your hopes of having Peter Parker return to his body, I'm going to dash them and like totally erase race his subconscious oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, like this is like the final nail in the coffin for Peter Parker.
Speaker 3:Doc ox is going to be full on permanent driver of a spider man. And then of course, the last couple of years is like you know, of course Peter Parker comes back and retakes his body, but you know it was a fun like like year and a half of just like going down this rabbit hole of alright, here's your not so friendly neighborhood spider man going and and pushing the boundaries of what it was like in the first series, coming back into comics, that I had the complete run of like from number one to the final issue it was. I didn't start in the middle and try to figure out where everything was. Like I said during this time I think you said it to Steven like DC's in the middle of their runs, I think when I came back on I think they were just about to start death of the family for Scott Snyder's and Greg Apulos run. I think Hawkeye by Matt fraction was like on its seventh issue. So I missed the boat on a lot of good titles. I think Jason Aaron, store, god bomb saga, god butchery, god bomb. So it was like about to end and so getting a new number one was like oh yeah, sweet, I'm on the ground floor, I know what's like, I could follow the story from its start to its end, and so that was. You know, was it the greatest story? Not quite, but it was just like a cool way to get back into comics.
Speaker 3:And then, for my honorable mention, I would, I'm going to say Mark waves, dare double with Chris Samney. This is another series that I missed the boat on until it was like halfway through the series. I think Chris Samney, he, he wasn't the beginning artists of Mark waves dare double run, I think it was Paulo Rivera was the first artist. But the dare double series was just getting recognition at this time because this duo of writer and artists were like putting out quality work, like the art was always dynamic and really fun to read and it was different than like the previous iteration of dare double which at this time I was when I was digging through back issue bins was like Brian Michael Bendis, ed Brubakers and it's like very dark noir, ish, dare double take. And then this was like light and funny and almost cartoonish and it's in its portrayal, and so that was like a fun read and I got I'm glad I got to to read that series.
Speaker 3:And then my other honorable mention is invincible, from image comics written by Robert Turkman and art by Ryan Otley and I think during this time I think they had just passed issue 100 of invincible. So I think when I finally added invincible to my comic book poll I think they were on issue 105, which is like you don't hear those numbers anymore in the comic book issue industry and so on. The comic book was still 299 and has remained 299 from the very end, from beginning to end and like to. It was just, it was just brutal read. I remember getting the comic book compendiums from the library trying to catch up and just the story of seeing Mark Grayson getting his superpowers and then his like almost a natural progression of him learning about what it means to be a hero and fighting a war and then eventually having a family and and what that means to for the next generation. But that was really fun. I'm glad I got all the issues, I think, back issue diving. I think I have issues 85 through the very end, so I think 85 through 144. So, like I said, you don't see a lot of comic books that go to that number mark anymore besides like Walking Dead, but there's no comic books that reach like PES issue 50.
Speaker 3:At that time, though, those were the heyday of like comic book collection. Now it's like a new number one every three months, but, yeah, invincible was, I would say, on par with like a Peter Parker or an origin story of this teenager who eventually grows up into being a father and starting at the ground level of being a superhero and what he learns and how he applies it, of course, like all the brutal battles and people who he has to rip apart, but it was a fun read. It was a fun read, but, yeah, those are my choices for that era of comics. Of course, I read a ton more, like everything if it's piqued my interest, I was reading it, even like some terrible, terrible Rob Liefeld comics. I would be like yo hey, I'll pick it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was my time.
Speaker 3:You could do.
Speaker 1:I mean for our era, for the period that we were reading comics, you could do multiple parts of like we could do. We can have this as a whole podcast. We really wanted to, just because of how much content came in during that time, you know, and a lot of the stuff that we're seeing now in the movies, like a lot of the characters that were created during our time of reading comics, are now hitting a big screen, small screen, what have you? But going back to Superior Spider-Man, just to kind of give my take on it a little bit, when you were mentioning that, it was like a controversy, like that was, for me that was one of the first big controversies that I was kind of interested in, right, like I was just getting into comics, and then I was like people are up in arms about this Doc Ock, spider-man, and that's when really social media kind of was starting to. It was big. But once Twitter and all that started coming up, like Dan Slott and Dan Slott still is getting flack, not just for Spider-Man, like just that storyline in itself.
Speaker 1:But anything that he writes is always, like you know, it's always gonna have its detractors, I mean, you know, and he always bites back. He's one of those creators that I'll just like he won't. He'll let it go up to a certain extent, but if you come at him he's gonna come back at you. So that was. I was like when I first kind of read about that controversy, I was kind of like, hey, man, there's some drama, there's drama in the comic community. I was like I really didn't. I thought everyone was like all koon by y'all and stuff like that. I know we have our disagreements, but to kind of come at the creators, that was kind of like my first kind of first, kind of like first time seeing that type of thing.
Speaker 2:I don't know, neil, if you have any like comments on that or about that, or were you reading Superior or were you kind of okay, yeah, because I think with RC, I think that's one of the very few runs that I got, like every single issue of as well. I was like one of like the very, very few on my pull list. Yeah, I mean, it was just interesting because, like I get how you want to see Peter Parker, like I get that voice in that side, but at the same time, it's like we're always gonna get those stories, we're always gonna get new writers telling Peter Parker stories, or it's the one they push the envelope when you get something new and different and it could be a really good read because it's something different. And that's why I enjoyed Superior Spider-Man. Like it's just something a little bit different and see how they could take it. And the writing was good too, how he was telling that story, and there was always like, oh, you see, there's Peter Parker, subconsciously he's gonna come back. We all knew it. Then he's like like you were saying RC, like that will just kill the subconscious off. So, yeah, that was like, yep, like he played into Dance Latte and he knew you were gonna talk smack about like, oh, he's Peter Parker is really coming back. See, we all knew as like nope, this is a long run. Guys, yeah, it's passing your seatbelt, but yeah, like it's like anything when they try something a little bit different.
Speaker 2:I get how if you make things like way too different, you gotta have a good story behind it. You know, you just all of a sudden you're not gonna see like I don't know, like a Captain America story where, like all of a sudden, he's like I don't know, he changed his colors, colors came for no reason and then the writing is bad. Like just have a good writing, it doesn't matter if it's different. Yeah, there's gonna people that always complain cause it's against the status quo, but like you wanna do something interesting and have it be not just good writing but something that would grasp people in a certain way.
Speaker 2:So like, yeah, people get too, too penny on stuff like that. Like I get how I truly get it Some things that are too different. It might be a little bit jarring, but hey, if you like check out the writing. The writing's also bad. I would understand. Like everyone being up in arms, you know, have at least be good too. Like that's why I enjoyed Superior Spider-Man, cause it's like man, this is weird, but I'm like still like really like into the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like Dan Slott is one of those writers that will bring us A game, especially with Spider-Man. I mean, he's one of the I mean, for our time that we were reading comics, he was definitive Spider-Man guy, you know, and he always delivered when it comes to that. Whether you liked it or not, he was creating a content for Spider-Man. That got him, that got traction. You know, in different outlets, media, everyone kept talking about Spider-Man and whether it be good publicity, bad publicity, it's still publicity, right, and with all these comics that are on the shelves, you know, for him to kind of keep Spider-Man in. But, like, Spider-Man is already a very beloved character, right, when you kind of spin it and have the ability to tell that story right and keep it in the news, keep it in the cycle, keep it on people's minds, it's very hard to do like, especially now, and that was kind of like a flash in the pan moment where you could do something with Spider-Man that's never been done or and kind of take it all the way and see how far it is. That's a pure Spider-Man run. I don't think you'll ever see that type of run again in future comics now because again we kind of harden back to it. It's kind of like what's the movies doing? Can we keep that same energy with the movies, you know? And if they do do something like that, that's nothing more than like three or four issues, right. Like Superior, Spider-Man took that all the way and it was during that period that we were reading that you could do something like that.
Speaker 1:Spider-man wasn't interconnected with the Marvel Universe at that time, Like it was kind of just its own thing. So for Dance Slot and Editorial and the powers that be to kind of let him do that and to kind of give him stir that controversy but also back up that controversy with good writing, have a decent, stable artist to really portray that story and it just kept coming. Like Dance Slot does a great job of keeping you, just giving you a little bit and you want to come back for more, and a lot of writers have a hard time of doing that, especially for how seasoned of a veteran he is. He could have just mailed it in like I'm fricking writing Spider-Man, like I'm good, Like I don't have, I can keep telling the same neighborhood Spider-Man stories for the rest of time and I'm good. But to kind of take that chance and to take that risk. It's something that we'll never see again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the thing is like this story is now 10 years old, but it's still. You still see the ramifications of it in like the current storylines like Doc Ock still kind of refers to him, it's helping the Superior Spider-Man's and some storylines, and like it's not something that's like one off, like oh, we did this just for fun and then you'll never see this again. This is a story that's like continued on even to this like 10 year mark, where, like this, the story is still kind of unfolding, it's still telling itself and it's not and there's still, you know, still other tales to be told with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to say there's a in one of the alternate universes, I think there's a version of Superior Spider-Man or Doc Ock, like Peter Parker, he like actually eradicate him. I think there's a. There's. That version exists still. So, yeah, yeah, so we'll still see it.
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure. But like in today's era, now it's probably going to be tied to like a film thing. Maybe, like beyond the Spider-Verse you might see Doc Ock Spider-Man or something that would be cool. But yeah, like during that time Spider-Man wasn't even part of the MCU conversation. We were still coming off of the Andrew Garfield Spider-Man and we were like there's no way he's going to one day be in the MCU, so they could just like focus on a like contained story that like, oh, if we told the story it's not going to affect anything. In like the movie conversation. People are going to be like I want my Spider-Man. Oh, what's this Spider-Man? It's Doc Ock. I don't know about this. Where's my Peter Parker Spider-Man?
Speaker 1:So oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean we have what? 50, 60 years of Spider-Man, peter Parker? You can't take like maybe two years just to kind of like let's see something different. Yeah, yeah, people churn, people always want something different. But when you make it something different that they don't understand or they don't want, that's when they'll be like I want my Peter Parker back.
Speaker 1:I'm just like just read other Dance Slot did another run, a whole different run, I mean Spider-Man. Just read that Right, and it's just like you know it just ballooned into something that was like come on, man, like I feel like sometimes, especially now, like people just create controversy to get content, to kind of make themselves, you know, seem bigger than they are. You know they talk about some controversy, you know, especially with like comics gate and all that. We don't need to dive into that. That's a whole another can of worms.
Speaker 1:But just like, as that being an example, just people kind of you know just what's the topic of the day in comics to kind of, like you know, be pissed about, you know, and you know we, you know Superior Spider-Man is not like the first one, or not wasn't the first one, but it was kind of like what we kind of experienced during that time we were reading, and I mean there's been other stuff beforehand. I mean, you know, just to kind of name an example, captain America, hydra, the Secret Empire thing, like that was as big as Spider-Man. You know, superior Spider-Man, that's like almost one A, one B, for what I remember being like one of those things that you just, you know, remember, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, also, another example was the Superior Iron man, when Tony Stark turned heel. Like that was a good run. But you know, when you take a story out of its like, like canon events, pretty much you know referencing across the Spider-Verge, like oh no, you have to contain these stories. There's like certain guidelines that you have to do and you know. But you know, after a while they get kind of stale on you. You have to push the boundaries in order to create new interesting stories.
Speaker 3:So Superior Spider-Man like did that, you know, took you out of your what you knew and told a whole different story. You knew eventually like Peter Parker would come back, but for that period of time we were just like okay, let's just go down this rabbit hole and experience a different thing and same thing with, like Captain America, hydra and Tony Stark turning heel, and I'm sure there's other numerous examples of like. And anytime another example anytime I see a death of a character, like death of Dr Strange, death of Kamala Khan, and people are like up in arms about it, I'm like you know what, give it, give it six months, they'll be back. You just got to like be patient and all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, even quicker now. It's almost like two months, like that issue when she died was like three months ago, and then now, you know, seeing the Comic-Con day, they tease that she's coming back and she has a new number one. So it's like it's even quicker now.
Speaker 1:Like back in the day we were, when we were reading, like we would have to wait like a while, you know, cause they were kind of doing the slow build. But now it's like, you know, just wait two weeks and then you'll get a leak where it's like oh, how have you found it? Like someone had like a photo of the Hell's Gala, like, how like, and then they saw like Miss Marvel in the back and they were like, oh, that's Miss Marvel.
Speaker 1:So you know, the internet sleuthing when it comes to comic books is like it knows no bounds man, like you know, people will figure it out, you know, and just put two and two together with that stuff. So, yeah, yeah, All right. So let's move on to the next. Neil, Keep it going. What's the comic you chose in some honorable mentions?
Speaker 2:So the comic I chose is Avengers, volume one. Jonathan Hickman's run, the very beginning, how it all started, this giant wave leading up to Secret Wars. This is what 2012? I think when it came out cause it came out just right when they did the whole Marvel Now stuff and this was like, I guess, to compare it to DC's new 52, it was kind of their like big relaunch in a way. Lot of new number ones, you know, obviously adapting stuff from the movies. You see Nick Fury Jr, who is, you know, pretty much looks like Samuel L Jackson. He takes the front stage, he's the head of Sheel Now and responding from Marvel Now.
Speaker 2:You see Hickman doing this new Avengers book and the first issue was really such a good setup. Just because Tony Stark, captain America they're talking about. Hey, now we have roster change ups every now and then Some members want to stay on, some don't, and how should we proceed? Like going forward further? And he's like we got to go big, we got to have a giant roster and they had probably the biggest roster I think I've seen out of at least my knowledge of the Avengers, and it was interesting how they recruit all these characters and their specific purpose, because they wanted certain power sets, and they also had some mutants on their team as well, and Shang-Chi was actually on this one. This is way before there was talks of him joining the MCU. He was in Hickman's Avengers and to start out how they wanted to be more of a force to protect the world and to see what was going on behind the scenes with new Avengers, which Hickman was reading too.
Speaker 2:The only regret I have, though, is I stopped reading new Avengers consistently after the Infinity event. I should have kept reading, because it really ties in more to what's going on into Secret Wars, but obviously they needed this big roster. It was really the aluminized play of like, hey, we're going to have this big team, and this is why and pretty much the Luminon needed the Avengers to kind of be like covering the ground while they hid in the shadows and did their own things behind the scenes, and that's where the incursions took play. So, reading the first volume Avengers book, seeing all these new characters, some that you might have seen in like X-Men books or you've seen before, or obscure characters too, it really pushed the envelope on how to include all these characters and to show that anyone could be an Avenger, anyone could tell a story and it kind of made me feel good, like oh, wow, and I'm like, why is Sunspot a cannibal? Like two means that I don't like at all. Why are they a part of the Avengers? And the way Hickman wrote it just made me actually like them. So I really enjoyed how he set up the Avengers and new Avengers, leading into Infinity, leading to Secret Wars with the talks of incursions, and now look at the MCU, they're trying to do incursions now and obviously we have Secret Wars coming on.
Speaker 2:But if you get into the verse couple of volumes of the Avengers and new Avengers as well, but mainly the Avengers you kind of see the seeds being planted. You kind of see how things are going on behind the scenes, Cause when you're reading it you just read this team book and you're enjoying it Cause they know there's bigger threats out there. They need to be more prepared. We can't be caught from behind the back again.
Speaker 2:They've been in the past few events, that being Civil War, secret Invasion, the Dark Avengers during Dark Rain, and they really took stuff that happened in the past to propel what's going on to the future and I think it's one of the better stories Marvel's done in the last decade. I know they got a lot of great stories too, but Hickman's Avengers, new Avengers, even before Secret Wars I'm not even including Secret Wars I think that's one of the best Marvel comics they had in that decade. So yeah, I mean, I don't know if you guys remember reading too much about it. I know I think we were kind of reading Secret Wars. Are you guys picking it up? Hickman, secret Wars.
Speaker 1:I don't think I did. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I don't think I did. It was one of those things where I remember the hype, like I was just kind of on the outside, yeah, but yeah it was, it was a really big deal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, having to revamp the secret wars, yeah, Because there's so many twists to like before secret wars, like leading up to. There's so many twists that make it go damn. This wasn't like issue number 12. What issue are we on now? We're like 28. Oh, damn, so yeah.
Speaker 3:I picked up secret wars and I remember like that that long hiatus between, I think, the the last couple of issues. Like there was a long delay yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, but the art was like super, super good art by Isad Rebek. But the funny thing is like between in that hiatus between issues like Jonathan and release, like a kind of another secret wars, like parody and there, and it kind of explains I forget the title of the issue, but it basically there's a cut scene where it's Jonathan Hickman in like a boardroom trying to explain secret wars and then like the board members are like oh yeah, that's that's. That's pretty cool, how are you going to end it? Like I and Jonathan Hickman is like I have no clue how to end this story. Yeah, and that's why it's causing the long delay.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think I remember that I got to look that one. That sounds pretty funny.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was. It was like a spoof of secret wars written by Jonathan Hickman, so it was like a like a comedy thing. But it was just like him, just basically trying to ease our anxiety, like where is this last issue?
Speaker 2:When is it going?
Speaker 3:to come out. It's just him explaining like yeah, I had no idea how I'm going to end this. I think it was seven issues.
Speaker 2:But then he's like oh, we got to make it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean even before. Then just the build up and how they tied what's going on in the Marvel Universe. I think it was just really clever because you didn't realize it was building up to you know, secret wars. With the incursion, I think, the event they titled it, time runs out where it's like, oh, shoot, you know the.
Speaker 2:I think I don't know if it was the ultimate universe, but it's pretty much as colliding with the 616, where then like boom, like they're dead now they're part of this new reinvented world, which Dr Doom, you know spoiler he was the one that's kind of like orchestrating, like, oh, I knew this is happening, so I kind of want to get ahead of it. Let the luminosity kind of do their stuff and you know, kind of piggyback off them. So if they failed or succeeded, I know where my place would be, but he knew they were going to fail. So because he pretty much like engineered the whole battle world, and that like was always blew my mind too, because it's just they kept calling back to so many issues in the past where you didn't feel confused or lost. The only thing I like I said I regret was not continuing on with new Avengers, because that kind of was like the more dramatic, the more character driven there's motives like early on, captain America is part of it. Then you realize I don't want to just, you know, kill it an entire university. So you are, this is wrong. So they're like we got to erase your memory, professor X. All right, you're off the team. We need someone who's not gonna. You know, we have to do this, we have to destroy the worlds. So I always thought that was just interesting. Like man, this they're going really big. How are they going to like justify this? What's going to happen? So that kind of kept me interested in.
Speaker 2:Obviously it's spawning off a lot of great tie or spin offs and there's a lot of great other stories that are told because of what's going on in the world. That Pikmin was kind of setting up and I'll kind of like jump into. My first honorable mention is Iron Patriot by Alice Cot, and I was going to pick Secret Avengers by Nick Spencer and Alice Cot, but I kind of would go off the spin off of that because it was just a nice story, a mini series of James Rhodes Rody where he he currently was Iron Patriot because, you know, surprised, during that time, iron man 3 came out and he was one of the Patriots. So he told a story where it's more grounded. He's trying to do his own thing when he's not part of, you know, the Avengers, when he's not saving the world. You know what is he doing? He's still a government agent. He still works with the US government and he's dealt with a situation where it's like, hey, the US government says I need to focus on homeland issues. You know, if there's a, you know, huge level threat, then I need to go off, you know, out of my country to help another country out. Like, yes, I will help it. As far as like that you got other heroes in other regions. I got to stay here in the US and that kind of like was the start of how enemies wanted to attack him. And there's this mystery of like, why is he being hunted? He's just trying to do his job as a you know, he's doing his duty to this country and it was just a nice ground story. You kind of see how his family is. His dad talked to his. You see how much his niece looks up to him and how she wants to be like him one day. So it was a nice little ground story that's been off of a secret Avengers because he was Iron Patriot there. So I really enjoyed it because it was one of the few minis that were grounded, obviously like something like Hawkeye was a very grounded story. I was looking for more, more issues like that, for more characters and lesser no characters too, and it was really nice to read that. So that's my first novel mention. That's a nice quick read issues, one through five mini series, if you guys want to check it out.
Speaker 2:And then the next one I want to talk about. This one kind of spun off of secret wars was squadron supreme. I don't know what it is, but I'm like such a huge fan when, when Marvel parodies that I want to say parodies, but they make characters that pay homage to the DCs justice they can. Vice versa, when he makes characters, they pay homage to Marvel characters and obviously the squadron supreme. They're the Justice League of the event or Marvel.
Speaker 2:And just to see how they came together, each for this version, each member was from a different universe that died because of luminous actions and pretty much almost almost all of the worlds that were destroyed. The one person who pretty much wanted this destruction, like the main guy yeah, there's a whole team of them, the little naughty but was Namor. So the first issue they all teamed up Hyperion, nighthawk, blur, I think, dr spectrum, who's like the Green Lantern version, and power princess, who's like the Wonder Woman version. They all like attack Atlantis. Hyperion picks it up and it's like yeah, I could like destroy your whole like world in your own way. So you need to surrender. But then they're like so filled with anger they just, you know, we'll just kill you. So he just lasers his head off and I don't know I forgot how he comes back from the dead. But when you saw that first issue of how they kill it off, namor was like damn Right, I like where, where James Robinson is going with this, so, and that's a guy who's done JSA for DC, so I was really excited to see what he was going to do. So, yes, gorgeous, supreme, that's another underrated one.
Speaker 2:It kind of I also ended abruptly, but it it was at the time. I wish I could have seen them more, but looking back at it now on a lot of stuff that ended, I'm kind of glad it ended where it where it was, just because you know want to overstay or welcome you know. Obviously I want to see them come back, I want to see another war machine or I am Patriot story again, but during that time you kind of like I had a good meal. I felt completed, this was a good read, this is a good story. And then obviously some of those characters got spin offs, mini series, which is great to the checkout. But yeah, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 2:I just really enjoy whenever Marvel and DC they make characters from the other publisher, from the rival company, and it just interests me a lot. I really like when they do that. So like whenever DC does stuff, they make characters and they tell stories of characters that they're parading from Marvel, like, oh man, this is cool, I want to see what this is about. And then it always interests me for whatever reason. So that's why I really enjoyed it. Plus, they got James Robinson right. He's done a lot of really good work on the Earth to just as leak stuff. So, yeah, that was like my two picks and I could have gotten some other honorable mentions. I just want to pick those two just because those are like small underrated ones stood out to me and I'm like I really enjoyed it. So that's my pick for those.
Speaker 1:I think it's cool, man, like going back, going back to your Avengers one through five. I'll give like 30 seconds for praising Jonathan Eggman. I feel like he's one of those people, one of those writers that is almost like has a show runner mentality, right, like he starts from the ground floor and he does something. He starts from the ground floor and he remakes everything into his own, what he sees, right, you know, and his first thing was like he, you know he had a run on Fantastic Four, like he's probably one of the few creators that are able to kind of shape some of the founding teams of Marvel, right. So you know he has this Fantastic Four and right here, you know, during his Avengers run he like almost remade it. He had to his to his like, to his image of what he wanted to see, and his is his stuff.
Speaker 1:I wish I could like absorb Hickman stuff a lot better, you know, because his stuff is like you have to be all the way committed right, like you have to see it all the way through. And you know, from his designs of how he did the Avengers and stuff like that and just the wrinkles that he was able to play with and build up. The Seeker Wars is something that like is. That's like every creator stream right to kind of like, kind of fulfill like your, your, your whole, like your whole thing. And I feel like he's done that with Avengers and also with X men. Like though I was just catching up on X men with Hickman and he was on there for a little bit and then he kind of he got away from that, but just the introduction of the X man he just kind of like it made everything so interesting whether it doesn't make it important.
Speaker 1:It makes it feel, yeah, yeah, it was, it was like that and he did it, starting with just the design, right, the designs of the X man. The way the book felt when you're reading it. It just felt so fresh and new. And there's stuff that, like you don't, you don't know, like you don't know any of this stuff, like you think you know, but you don't know with how we decipher stuff, and he leaves all those little like you know, he leaves on an own page to kind of describe different terms, different things.
Speaker 1:it's almost as he's making his own civilization within existing civilization which is so crazy that he's able to kind of master and is able to have that leeway to do that. You know, I think that's that's really one of those things like that Hickman should be lauded for is like he, he, he can bring his vision to life and it's just like you know. It's something that you, if you understand, you'll get a lot more out of it. If you don't understand, you're just like you know. You're like what is this? But you kind of want to read more, especially, you know, especially when, when he can create something like that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, he's one of those creators, like in the 2010s, that you can look back and you're like dang man, like he, he was one of those creators that kind of got to do what he wanted and it it like it was really one of those memorable ones that you'll kind of look back like Dan kind of he started from the ground floor with the Avengers, built it up and got it to secret wars and you're seeing that again. Yeah, you mentioned before, you're seeing that in the movies. Now, Like, again, he's like one step. I feel like sometimes he's one step ahead. Like I don't feel like no creators are doing what Hickman is doing with characters. You know he could do that, create his own world in an independent book. But to take the history of the X man, the history of the Avengers and kind of like, get to like shake it up and make it, make it like kind of a futuristic type where you just add different elements to kind of get you to kind of be like what is this, you know?
Speaker 3:yeah, so yeah, that's just my little little thing with that he thinks at like a scale that other writers I don't think think at like his. When he does a story, it's completed, it's a complete vision.
Speaker 3:So even you know, going back to to his Avengers run, you can see roots of the blueprint of what he was building to, even in his like fantastic for run, like like storylines from there are rooted in his Avengers run which become rooted and an infinity which you know, over this course of like years builds to secret wars, like his grand master plan is like this is these are all storylines that eventually tie into each other and that scope of storytelling is almost unheard of in the comic book format where you just, like you, have 20 pages to tell a story on a monthly basis. And he told like this sweeping epic of incursions of the Illuminati, of, you know, thonus' attack on earth, to remaking the entire multiverse in this one completed story. And not only that, like the small details, like you know, whenever we see a Hickman comic, you know he's like made his own alphabet of like little dots and lines, like his own language. He's mapped out everything down to the smallest detail and that epic scope is something that, like it feels like a sum of blockbuster. Those were like the summer events that you kind of look forward to.
Speaker 3:I know like during this time there were a lot of like summer. They tried to make comic books like summer events. So you had like Age of Ultron, infinity, original Sin, secret Empire. But Jonathan Hickman's was like on another level and now, even to this day, 10 years later from when he started those stories now that you're seeing adapted into film, you know there's still. They're far reaching, they have ramifications that have reverberated from the time you saw them in the comics to today. They still have consequences and they still have little storylines that they're still. That has reaching effect into today's stories.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, man, Avengers was a good pick. It's one of those things where, like, I want to like, now that you mentioned it, I kind of want to go back and give it a shot and like, if you guys, if you're a new reader and you jump on the Hickman stuff, just be prepared you know you're not going to.
Speaker 1:The thing is, though, with him you're not going to learn everything in one issue, like he's going to give you so many breadcrumbs and you just have to do what you do with it. Like you could either leave it alone and just come back to it later, or you could actually like just go on a deep dive and just try to like decipher as much as you can. So so yeah, so yeah, all right, okay. So my picks we're going to. We're going to take it, take it toward a DC, and we're going to talk about one of the underrated books of the new 52 of DC, and we're going to talk about Batwoman. Batwoman is one of those characters that kind of led the forefront when it came to diversity in comic books around that time. You know, she she was created in the 52 weekly, which was it's kind of weird to have that type of weekly event that was going on, and I didn't read 52, but for her to actually be ingrained in that was pretty interesting. Not to not to have your own number one to kind of introduce you, you're introduced within an event, and sometimes you're just out of those events. You might just be a side character for the rest of your time, you know, but when Greg Rucka and JH Williams came on the detective and they did the origin of Batwoman and kind of laid the foundations of it, it blew up. And for her to have a new number one in the new 52 was pretty special and going into the new 52 run if you ever want to go into it, I would suggest going back to that Rucka and JH Williams run because again, it laid that foundation and new 52, this run was kind of a continuation of that and didn't have Rucka on it but it had Hayden Blackman and JH Williams on it, jh Williams being one of the prolific artists of that time and they they kind of continued that story and building up Kate Kane as a character in Gotham. You know this is a Gotham in the new 52 that had only just Batman but they had night, like different characters, you know, ingrained in it, so to kind of have her own footing right, to have her own turf of Gotham. It was pretty hard to do, especially she was just the character that was just created and still being trying to be established. So so, yeah, you in this, in this.
Speaker 1:You know, I read like the first two volumes and was really fascinating about that woman is just how she was ingrained in Gotham City she was. She was not only just the socialite that would just go out to clubs and party it up. She was ingrained within the you know, the Gotham City Police Department. She had a relationship with Maggie Sawyer. She also had interactions with Batman. But I'm glad that during that new 52 run they were kind of putting like bits and pieces of Batman. Batman was trying to recruit her to come join Batman Incorporated. That was still being, that was still being formed. So throughout that first volume she was kind of thinking about it.
Speaker 1:But that only is just as one wrinkle right, like there was different wrinkles on top of her. You know her trying to navigate Gotham City. You know she, she had her relationship with her father, jacob, who you find out in in the Greg Rugga run that her father has been keeping a secret from her and it kind of changes the whole dynamic of their relationship. And it's kind of a cool parallel with Batman. And you know he doesn't have his parents, you know, and Thomas Wayne is one of those things where he kind of just looks up to him like he just has this, you know, has this aura about his parents and for Kate Kane to have her relationship with father being almost the opposite. Like you kept stuff from me and all that it was really interesting to see and you kind of you kind of just developed that type of like thinking as you're reading this book.
Speaker 1:You know you have other artists like JH Williams, amy Reeder and Trevor McCarthy on the book. So as much as I like JH Williams stuff, you know his art is amazing. His panel layouts is just you know it's definitely one of the standouts in the New 52, just the way he can lay out a page and it just be beautiful and tell that story at the same time. But also you have Amy Reeder and Trevor McCarthy to kind of keep that same vibe of the book. So you know also, you know you have this main story going along too with that woman that she's trying to solve a mystery where these kids are getting kidnapped, and pretty much it was this villain called the Weeping Woman and she was just kind of you come to find out she's just a little bit of a wrinkle of what the main thing is and they really did a good job of kind of like peeling the different layers of that into something that is bigger, bigger than Gotham City, and it was interesting to kind of see her trying to figure that out.
Speaker 1:You know, along the way I think, through like volume two, you kind of find out that things are not what it is, you know. So there's that and you have, you know that woman also has her sidekick Flamberg, who is Beth Cain, which is her cousin, and to have her as a Robin type and for her, for Kate Cain to be like, hey, you don't, I don't think you want to do this Like this is like, you know, I don't, I don't think you understand the gravity of being a sidekick, being, you know, on the front lines, having that almost like a, you know, just from the military. So she has that background of just like, you know, being in the trenches and kind of creating Gotham as like a war zone, almost so for her to kind of suede her. That was another wrinkle in the relationship. It's just a family dynamic when it came to that book. And also, you know you have her relationship with Maggie Sawyer. You know she is, you know they, they did a really good job of not like beating the point that she's a lesbian. You know they kind of just weave that in and that was just.
Speaker 1:That was like you know it was really, it was, it was really good, like it's just a little normal, like it didn't feel like it was a big deal. And you know, having those creators on the book, they know the history of the character, they know what, what the tone needs to be and I think that their relationship was very, very similar to any other relationship. You know the ups and downs of it and her having to keep that identity from Maggie, who is pretty much a mainstay in that GCPD. So that what I love about this run is just it's so many layers, so many things that you can take away from the book. I feel like every issue I read I gained a little bit of more. Nothing was fluff, it was all like just developing, developing, developing. And you know that's one of those things where you know when you look back at this new 52 runs and you kind of see like who, who made it out right? Who made it out the best?
Speaker 1:I feel like that woman is one of those characters that made it out the best. You know it did lead to some controversy. You know editorial coming in and kind of stepping, stepping in, I think around like issue 24, there was the controversy of the editorial did not want Maggie Sawyer and Kate Kennedy get married or engaged or anything like that. You know that was. That was kind of the thing with the new 52 as well is that there was a lot of creative differences, a lot of editorial turmoil that you know that if we didn't get that, you don't know like we could be talking about that woman as one of the runs of the new 52, but it's kind of, kind of sucks that I got cut short. It's not like the creators that came after it did a bad job, it's just it was hitting on all cylinders right and for. For something like that to happen is kind of it's, it's it, it sucks.
Speaker 1:But for the issues that we have, I thought it was amazing. It's one of those things where you know I even get into Kate Kane working with the DO like that's just how much information that you're given in each issue and I feel like every issue you get something out of it and you know that's that's. You know that's very rare in some in some comics these days, but yeah, so that's that's my take on Batwoman. I hope you guys read it and you know Batwoman is a very underutilized character right now, like I feel like she should deserve. She deserves her, her due, especially, you know, after a strong run, you know, going into the new 52, I feel like she deserves another shot. Hopefully she gets them, you know, another series soon.
Speaker 2:But yeah, she, she. They announced it today, stephen. She's part of a new team book, the Outsiders.
Speaker 3:Oh really, all right, it broke today.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think she's, she's teaming up with Luke Fox, so Batwing and Batwoman oh yeah, I like Luke Fox. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so they say it's a 12 issue series called the Outsiders or something Outsiders. But yeah, and so I saw that news today. I was like, oh, I like those two characters. I think I'm going to check it out.
Speaker 1:Hopefully that's a start of something new man yeah yeah, right, I think that's a good thing.
Speaker 1:Like they always try to do a team book first and then whoever kind of like is popular. They're kind of like, hey, let's spin it off. So hopefully, you know, hopefully soon, we can get something like that in the near future. Yeah, yeah, so I guess I'll go into like my two quick honorable mentions. I wouldn't remiss to be talking about Superman book Peter Tomasi and Patrick Leason Superman, yeah. So one of my, one of my favorite Superman runs of rebirth of that period. It came during rebirth. That was a good. It was just. It was just a nice fresh shot in the arm for a character who, through the new 52, was kind of like just kind of track this ground. Yeah, a lot of misses.
Speaker 1:A lot of misses, bro, a lot of misses. You know Bendis tried to do something, which you know I give him credit. It's tough, but you know it's just one of those things where you know Patrick Leason and Peter Tomasi are like just peanut butter and jelly. They just work so well together. So, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:What was like the thing with, like they tried to incorporate like the transition from new 52 Superman to rebirth Superman. It was like the Superman from new 52 was like dying from kryptonite poisoning and then I think rebirth happened and they reintroduce Superman from the previous like pre crisis on infant births Superman. It's like it's yeah, it's. It got kind of.
Speaker 1:That's how convoluted, that's how like, just that's what they were doing, like, just, you know, almost remembering that is just like. Yeah, I'm just glad we were able to get to the other side of that because it got it got pretty wacky with Superman when it should be. You know, it's one of those things where you know Superman now is on the on the up and up. You know, ever since that Patrick Leason, tomasi run, it's just been, it's been hit or after hit, or especially with this new current run with Joshua Williamson. But yeah, like that's, that's, that's one, and the other one would have to be another Patrick Leason and Beards and must be running Batman and Robin run from the new 52. Like the silent issue, the death of Rob Damian, that was one of those issues where it was one of those things that you would just look back and like Dan, they actually did it, like, for it was, it was one of the more emotional issues. I mean, the whole Damian thing was, you know, was pretty crazy. But to have that issue in Batman and Robin and for them to convey that without words and let Gleason kind of tell that story, that's just how much of a run, a good run. That was like and yeah, that that run.
Speaker 1:I would recommend, if you want a nice Batman Batman story that's not too complex and just kind of straightforward but still has the punch of a Batman comic, it's that, it's that series. So, yeah, those two, those two are my kind of like. Those, my honorable mentions, and you know, again, that's just a small sampling, the tiniest sampling of what this era brought, this period brought, because you know you could, you can. We haven't even talked about saga, or, yeah, Batman, batman scenario, capullo. It's one of those things where you know we can make this a whole podcast.
Speaker 2:We've probably got like eight or nine more like honorable mentions right now at the top of our heads.
Speaker 1:And the thing is, those, like some of those comics are still hitters today, like best selling lists. Those are still the comics that people gravitate to Like. If there is any run of a character within that period, though, there's a run for you, like there's a run for you with every character. I feel like. I feel like this is kind of like the sweet spot. This is like our golden era of comics, cause we were in the middle of not only just a superhero boom, but also the independent boom as well. You know so. So yeah, like I guess we'll wrap it up. We'll wrap up the whole thing. I want you to give me one thing that you loved about this era, whether it be a book or just a moment about it. Like, what's one thing you love about this era of comics?
Speaker 2:I really liked how they just took a lot of characters and kind of put them in different positions which is nice kind of give them like refresh starts or something different, something new, superior, spider-man's example. You just saw a lot of these characters that are being shined and they're doing something different, or it could be something new that they're enhancing, like Batwoman. You know, I just like how a lot of B, c, even D-listers were getting a shot or like an A-lister, like Venom you know, it's not Eddie Broggetts, it's Flash Thompson. I like stuff when they do that, when they take these minor characters and give them a really good story.
Speaker 1:That's cool. How about you RC?
Speaker 3:What's the one thing you love? It was just like the, you know, like I, like we mentioned a number of times, this was the height of MCU, so Geek Fandom was, was prevalent. So I would love going to comic book stores free comic book day and just like, oh, you know, this was the weekend that Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 would come out, or Captain America Winter Soldier, and we would just be all hyped to get something. But it was also a good time for new readers, like today, like if you were trying to introduce a series to a new reader, you could be like, oh yeah, check out Saga, check out this. Like, like there was a lot of good starting points for a lot of readers. Like you know, miss Marvel got her start and during this time and this was the time when you were just like, yeah, if you want to check out Carol Danvers, we have a Carol Danvers first you want to check out Miss Marvel, the brand new character, literally from the ground level. You know you could follow her journey there. But there was like so many insertion points for new readers and it was just like it was just a great time just to, like you know, be part of this community of comic book collectors and Geeks and Nerds and we just had our time in the sun. We were just like you know, we used to be the guys in our bedrooms just like, oh, hopefully nobody sees me with the Spider-Man book, but now we were finally coming outside and having a community together and you know it was a. It is a great time. You know, it's like time. The period we live in now.
Speaker 3:Being a geek is not a bad thing. It's actually like oh, you get to. You know, you know this movie great, I would love to have a conversation with you. It's not something that's hidden in the dark corner now. It's now we can just like, freely and openly, just be like hey, I like this series, right, I read this comic book, I read this manga. You know it's just a good time to be a geek about pop culture and comic books. Yeah, man, dude, I definitely agree with that.
Speaker 1:It's just be. It is so easy to kind of just like we kind of had to get there right, like that time was like we had to kind of get the steps to kind of get there. And right now, in today's society, we have to kind of get there. And right now in today's society, I mean, comic books is everywhere, superheroes is everywhere. You know there's not one streaming service to not have like a superhero involved. You know, and they're still creating it every day. They're just trying to just. It's one of those things where you know we got, we were in, and when we were in, it was great, like we just had the right amount of superhero where we were like dude, this is awesome, whether it be you know Marvel, marvel and Netflix having their moment. And then you know you had all the, you know the Avengers movies, and then you had Disney plus and then you know we're still-.
Speaker 3:The CW Arrowverse was like- the CW Arrowverse.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it was just like we were ingrained in that and we just saw the evolution of that during this time. And comics was just, you know, another catalyst for that. And you know, going to, what I loved about it is just the amount of creation there was during that time so many new characters that we are now seeing in different streaming, different platforms now, and it's still creating, it's still evolving.
Speaker 1:I feel like this era just kind of propelled more people to kind of take a chance and make a character right, like you have, you know, we have the Miles, we have Spider-Gwen, we have, you know, different iterations of characters that is in the universe now, right, like they have their moment in the sun and now we're seeing it come to fruition in a more mainstream outlet. And I just feel like you know we run into those things. I don't think I feel like you know, I want this era to be like one of those eras we look back at right and be like kind of the start of something, like we kind of got on our own ground floor of like this superhero creation type thing. And you know, I don't think we'll be able to replicate it as well because there's so many happening right now. But, like for the Miss Marvels, the Jane Foster doors, like all that stuff happened in our time and I don't know if, because we didn't, they didn't figure it out yet. You know, we figured it out within the comics and now to kind of now looking 10 years, 20 years back, I don't know if they can replicate it. Maybe they can, but that popularity is just.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's going to be there then as it was back then, just because of how much content there is now, how much time, it just doesn't feel like there's not enough, like to go around. You know, it's just. It just feels like a lot of things are just happening all at once. It's just too fast. It could just be a moment right, like you have, I guess, this thing going on right now with Spider Boy, like this new Spider-Man characters just kick Sidekick. Yeah. So you know we don't know how far he's going to go, but he's gotten there, he's popular, he's has a new series coming out, but it's that next level that a lot of these characters, when we were reading, have reached. You know, they've reached that almost super star A list, you know, and it's all with us right, like it's all because of the fans. The fans like kind of gravitate towards something or you start seeing cosplay of something. It's just like you could yeah, it can go all the way to the moon with that.
Speaker 3:So it's, we're at the point now where, like, characters that were created during this period of time are now growing up and maturing. So, like you know, splyrig when found her footing during this time, damien Wayne, john Kent now he's now the new Superman, kamala Khan. They've had, like, their start during this time and now we've I feel like almost like a parent where, like you've seen these characters mature and grow and have their own adventures now and, yeah, this was like a good time for, or you know, new characters to show up and you know in today's kind of culture, you know, we do have a lot of.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of noise out there and so it's hard to really focus on the true inspirations or the true, the ones that are like like the diamonds in the rough now that are about to shine through. So maybe the spider boy character might have his or her time in the sun, and whatever new characters come up that's for the next generation of comic book readers or people who grew up in the pop culture scene.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, so it's a good time to leave it out. Man, it was great to kind of go back talk about one of you know the central moments of our comic reading, our beginnings and where we're at right now. So hopefully we'll have another conversation like this in the future. I mean, it's so great to talk about it. I could talk about this for multiple episodes. So hopefully in the future we'll come back to this and you know, we'll kind of read as more comics. But I appreciate you guys showing up talking with me.
Speaker 2:Go read comics people just read something.
Speaker 1:Go read it, man. No excuses, you can go to your local library right now and just pick up a book and just dive in.
Speaker 2:You can't find a bad issue.
Speaker 1:You can't, yeah, so all right, guys. Well, thanks again for listening. Thank you guys for make sure you subscribe, like all that stuff, make reviews, all that stuff, and we will see you all next time. Talk to you all later. Bye, I'll see you guys next time.